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Nai Nai's Nursery · Senior Member

Concerns about baking vinyl in ovens. . .

sara zata · Guru

I think someone said it was the older cheaper vinyls from china and japan that was causing the problems, but how long had the person been reborning before she got symptoms. If it has been since reborning started, then there probably are toxins in those vinyls. I thought the newer kits were safe. I didn't open the link as I have read it before. If it is the same one. Stay safe. I think you can purchace a small oven ,that I saw on this site, for doing reborning in. XXXXX June. disbelief

-- Edited by sara zata at 05:18, 2009-02-08

-- Edited by sara zata at 05:20, 2009-02-08

Buffington · Guru

I can't get to the topic cause I forgot my password but I'm sure it's the same one that I got an e-mail on from another forum I am on.

You don't have to worry with the Secrist/AV vinyl at all. It is non-toxic and therefore can be baked in the oven with Genesis Heat-Set paints. They are also non-toxic according to Genesis. Secrist even says right on the website that their kits are non-toxic vinyl.

The vinyls you have to worry about are any other kits, dolls, toys, playdolls, and any others that don't come right out and say they are non-toxic. Any with silicone and pvc's in them also will give off toxic gasses. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES bake any of these (including any vinyl/silicone mix or straight silicone) kits or doll parts in your home oven. Those gasses may cling or remain in your home oven for the next time you use it or longer.

I personally recommend most brands of "countertop" ovens. They are portable and if you have ANY question of baking a baby just move it outdoors and aleviate the potential health problems from yourself or your family and pets. I did post some links in another thread to some kinds of those little ovens. Do NOT use a toaster oven as they are different.

And no June, just because a kit is newer doesn't mean it's safe. I only know of the Secrist and Apple Valley kits. I have heard though (don't quote me on this though) that the German made kits are safer than other kits. Ask the manufacturers if you are in doubt as to issues. Don't ask the dealers as most of them don't know and they might only tell you what they themselves have heard. CHECK WITH THE KIT/DOLL MANUFACTURER!

I hope this helps :)

Nai Nai's Nursery · Senior Member

Thank you so much, Pat. Your answer is very helpful. I've decided to play it safe and get a countertop oven that I can put on my porch.

Buffington · Guru

Sounds like a plan to me! I mean just to be on the safe side. I do it all the time. I don't want those toxic fumes in my home. Besides, when I'm outside baking babies I'm also getting fresh air (when it's not "frozen tundra" winter here lol

sara zata · Guru

Thanks Pat, when we move I have a second oven to bake in, but the amount the ones that I am baking at present ,which are mostly secrists, For another few lots of baking, I don't think I will give myself anything else to stress about. Also using GHSP so I dont think there should be to much of a problem. XXXX June.

Buffington · Guru

Not from the Genesis. But from kits other than Secrist, yes.

Noantum · Senior Member

Hello Buffington,

     My name is Emily and I an a newbie to the reborning community. I am also a member of another forum but registerd here at the request of Secrist customer service. I ablosutely love babies (I have four of my own) and baby dolls and was delighted to learn of New/Reborning.
     I have done a lot of reading and researching on this art form and now would like to try it for myself. I also have concerns about VOCs and PVCs. I have read several threads on this forum, all of which have been a help to me. However, there are a couple of your posts that I am a bit confused by....would you please clarify for me? You said that you would not bake any vinyl kit other than Secrist in your home oven? Then in another thread say all vinyl gives of PVC gasses. Do Secrist kits also give off PVC fumes? Or does this mean that Secrist/AV kits can be baked in my kitchen oven and I will not have to worry about PVC emissions?
     I've moved and now live in a small apartment with only my kitchen oven. My only porch is a 3' x 5' patch at my sliding glass door. I don't know if this would be a good place to put a portable oven. If so, would the fumes still enter my home (because the glass door will be open)? I had planned to use air dry paints but after writing to Secrist customer service he replied to me and told me that air dry paints fade and wear off. I tend to be a perfectionist and would like to do things the right way from the start.....could you please help me? Any help with my dilemma would be very much appreciated.
Very Kindly Yours,
Emily

Buffington · Guru

Hello Emily,

I replied to your other post about being a newbie. I am also a member of several other forums, nice to see you here. Four babies, wow! that should keep you plenty busy!
A little about me and why I'm here: I have been a dealer for Apple Valley Dolls for over 18 years and Secrist for about 6 (give or take a little). I was also the only field sales rep for Secrist for over a year. Enjoyed it immensly! (that job was a trial and has been desolved). I am also a Secrist factory certified newborning/reborning teacher. So this is why I know so much about all this stuff (just in case you were wondering).

I asked Secrist about his vinyl and he said there are no PVC's in his vinyl, no silicone, and for some time now, no pthaltalates (sorry, sp?) and all the vinyl that they make in their US factory is non-toxic and can be baked in an oven. Yes there is a vinyl smell but I am assured that it is not toxic. Most other kits (except perhaps the ones made in Germany) contain ingredients that can be/are toxic when baked. I know Secrist is the only one that has "non-toxic" right on their website. I have never seen this on any other doll/doll kit site. Since those websites where I purchase kits "other" than Secrist/AV don't say they are non-toxic like Secrist does, I will not bake them in my home oven for safety reasons. I bake them in a separate oven which I take outdoors to bake the kits/dolls in and do not use for cooking food.
According to Secrist, the vinyl they use in their kits made here in the USA is non-toxic and can be baked in your home oven if you wish without fear of toxicity.
As far as baking on your 3'X5' area, only you can make that decision as I can not advise you on that.

As far as air-dry paints, Mr Secrist has said on several occassions that he has tried many paints so according to him the ones he tried didn't come up to his standards. And please realize that it does take time to test things (like paints) and the answer is found in time. He is the expert and I only follow his lead as he has done the tests.

My first suggestion (if you want to do the "Secrist Method" of newborning) would be to research the website, read about all the items and also the tutorials before makeing any decisions to jump in. It would be in your best interest to make sure you have training dvd's, supplies, possibly books or other DVd's we sell on our site to make your learning as good as can be. I know about being a perfectionist as I am as well.

So I hope this answered your questions.

Play Days Dolls · Guru

Patricia has given good advice, and I cannot add anything new or significantly different.

Personally, I bake all my vinyl in the kitchen oven. It's too hot here (desert southwest) for a several months of the year to have a separate oven operating outside.

Most of the kits I make are Secrist or Apple Valley. I occasionally purchase some other kits, preferably those that have test results to indicate the vinyl meets current safety standards.

Noantum · Senior Member

Thank you both for your replies. I have been through the Secrist website and many others before coming to this forum. However, the information on safety of vinyl was contradictive that is why I asked questions. I was leaning toward the air dry paints only because of concerns with PVCs etc. Now knowing Secrist and AV are non-toxic I can begin with piece of mind. I like the heat set paints because it allows me more room for error

Also since it is safe to bake in my home oven, I don't need to worry so much about my small outside space. I may still buy a counter top oven just because it'll be good to have it only for baking the.....uh...."babies"? (sounds real weird....) lol It's good to know that we can count on our own US company to have safe vinyl.

As for tutorials.....I've watched many! On YouTube, various sites, and plan to buy the Course #3 from Secrist along with the Technique Guidance Chart (or two or three). I also want to buy a couple of things from the Excellence in Reborn Artistry series. Trust me, I've tried to do my homework well. I try to be well informed before I start a new project. I don't like the preventable surprises that may come because I didn't make informed decisions.

I've checked out Secrist's site and will be going with the premixed paint set. I also like the fact that the Authenic Reborn paints do not need thinner. Guess why? Because it was said that that was dangerous too! Although when I get the chance I will be checking for non-toxic thinners.

Patricia I am so happy to be in a forum with someone as knowledgable as you! You know your product and have insider access to new news. The other women here are also lovely ladies. I can tell by their posts and replies. Also, I have read the rules/regs

Thank you so much!

P.S.
Oh yes, my children do tend to keep me busy. My eldest is 18 and I'm leaving now to pick her up from College Orientation. My others are sons 14,12, and 10. They are wonderful children and are a blessing indeed. They are actually quite anxious to see me start! My daughter has already found someone she wants to give my baby to if it is not up to my standards when I'm done! lol

Enjoy your day ladies.

Buffington · Guru

Well, I'm glad you are here with us and am looking forward to seeing many babies posted in our artist showcase.

Do remember... there are lots of methods by lots of people and companies. We here in this forum are concerned with the "Secrist method" of newborning as this is what we teach. Excellence in Reborning has some of their own methods and also Michelle in the special reborn encyclopedia (good if you want to do Asian or AA's). We have a starting point to get people familiar with the techniques where they can then either stay with what they learned or step out of the box and experiment. We are also a place for experts and in-betweens to come too (all levels). Always best to really learn the basics of something and then go from there no matter where you learn it.

I hope you enjoy our forum and the techniques you learn here. We'd love to see some of your babies in the showcase. Glad your family is also excited as it helps if you have some home appreciation.

Thank you for your compliments *blush* :)

-- Edited by Buffington on Monday 3rd of August 2009 04:34:56 PM

Noantum · Senior Member

You are very welcome. Have a good night

Buffington · Guru

:)

Noantum · Senior Member

Okay ladies.....so like I was just poking around on another site and there was chatter about the safety of oven again. They said it was confirmed that February of 2009 a woman was diagnosed with toxic vapor poisoning. Her doctor told her to document her reborning habits and when she went back it was confirmed that they coincided with her reborning. Her toxic blood levels were tripled when she reborned Ashton Drake dolls.
Okay.....my question is.....does anyone else know of any other cases like this? I have noticed that I am rarely ill but the two times that I reborned, I came down with a respiratory infection! At first I didn't think anything of it but now thinking back, it was the only time I was ill. Three of my children came down with the Swine Flu in Nov. and (thank God for watching over us) I didn't come down it. Hummmm this has given me something to think about cry

I took all the precautions: fully ventilated area, seperate oven to bake the vinyl in, not baking the vinyl too long or get it too hot. I even had an additional industrial fan running to fan any vapors (if any) out the window!
What is going on? I have a child with asthma and really am concerned. Anyone know if this is an isolated case? Or is there genuine concern here?

Buffington · Guru

This is why I have posted many times on baking dolls and kits. Secrist vinyl made here in the US is non-toxic, only vinyl (not a mix) and can be safely baked in ovens. A lot of the other makers of dolls and doll kits are a mix of vinyl/silicone or silicone or can contain toxins that can be hazardous to ones health. This is also important to me with regard to those with medical conditions such as asthma. Not everyone has issues and Mr Secrist says he has workers in his factory that have been around baking vinyl for 40 hours per week, for 20 years plus with no ill effects. He also said that yes, most vinyl smells when baked but does not mean it's toxic in the case of his vinyl.

I NEVER bake anything other than Secrist USA vinyl or German made vinyl kits in my home. You need to ask the "manufacturer" NOT the seller of the kits exactly what they are made of (vinyl, silicone/vinyl, etc). Most of the sellers don't know. I can't stress this enough, especially where your health or the health of your family or pets are concerned! Personally for me, I won't deal with any seller who doesn't reveal the "manufacturer" of their kits they sell.
Secrist (the manufacturer) has assured me that their kits made here in the USA are non-toxic. They also say that right on their site! I don't seen anyone else stating that in black and white, do you?

Also the German made kits I buy have even tighter restrictions on the "ingredients" their kits are made of, so I have no qualms about baking their vinyl in my oven (still with proper ventilation). But again, thats just me.

The AD dolls (and they are dolls not kits usually) are not safe to bake as a lot/most of them contain silicone which should NOT be baked at all!! Neither should those old play dolls from long ago as a lot of them are actually plastic not vinyl (did you know that?).

Genesis (the paint manufacturers) have told me (don't listen to me, check with them yourself) that their heat set paints are non-toxic, which is one reason why Secrist highly recommends them for use with their kits.

So... do what you need to do, talk to who you need to so you get the correct information right from the horses mouth so to speak. Above all... BE SAFE in your reborning!
Its the same with the Goof-Off for removing paints from dolls... Don't use it! It's not safe. Not everyone has/gets health issues from it, no, but do you really want to take the chance with a known carcinogen? I am living proof of the hazards of that stuff! But people still use it because they won't check with the manufacturer. Instead they listen to everyone else who didn't check it out first and haven't had any problems... yet!

PS... I had also heard of that woman and I believe she is supposed to live in the UK. But it's like anything else, all one person has to do is "create" a story that sounds believable (not to say this might not be true, I don't know for sure) and someone runs with it and all of a sudden there is a panic! Or someone changes it up for excitement and everyone goes off the wall with it! KNIM?

Sorry to go on so long but this is a VERY important subject. Just use our search feature and type in what you want to see a post on. :)

Happy, healthy reborning to you all!

Noantum · Senior Member

LOL I know exactly what you mean. The kit I bought last Saturday is from a German company. In the past I haven't seen a kit I like from Secrist that is why I haven't bought one of those yet. The Genesis paints I'm also going to order just because I want to try different paints and see what works for me. However, the other things I've checked the MSDS sheets and know what I'm getting into. This case though I was unsure of and wanted to know from people who have been doing this alot longer than me. Thank you so much for responding to me. For a thinner I plan on using the Mona Lisa brand over the Lowel-Cornel because supposedly less fumes. However, once again plenty of ventilation and only a bit at a time will be used.

I didn't know that about the plastic dolls blankstare

! I would never try to reborn from a full doll, I just couldn't do it. I very much prefer the kits and put it together myself. I also read about the silicone kits, man are those things dangerous. I mean just the material alone I knew I wouldn't put that in an oven.

The other kits I bought to reborn first said they were non-toxic phthalates free but I will try to find out exactly who the manufacturer is. It is a US company and states it on its' website, so I don't know I'll check it out. Perhaps I'll take another look at Secrist's kits since this is such an issue for me. Again, thanks for the information. I don't mind that you answered long, trust me! smile

Buffington · Guru

If you find out that other US company, can you pm me with the informaton (website)? I thought Secrist was the only US doll kit company left. It would be interesting to see who they are and what they say on their website.

Your thinner choice should be a good one. Check the MSDS sheet.
And for those of you who don't know what an MSDS sheet is it's the "Material Safety Data Sheet" and this has to have all the information on stuff, like what it's made of, if there are any hazards, toxicity, etc.

Most/all heat-set paints are actually manufactured by Genesis but come under different labels depending on which company you are talking about. Like Genesis makes different brand paints for Secrist than they do BB or anyone else who carries the heat set stuff.

And Emily, there are 2 new faces on the Secrist website. If you go to the homepage there is information on Tweeter and Candace if you're looking for new faces. :)

Noantum · Senior Member

Thanks Pat I will send you the info pm. Also, I will check Secrist's new faces smile

Buffington · Guru

Thanks, got your pm's.

Noantum · Senior Member

Hello

I checked out the new faces again and I like them. They are cute. Only thing.......the fingers and faces sometimes seems dolly. I plan to buy Sparrow because she has a more real face to me.....Squeaky too. Ummm...yeah.....chubby fingers. They can be cute.

Play Days Dolls · Guru

Candace is a new face for Secrist.

(Correction: I was wrong about Candace reminding me of Tulip. There was another face that reminded me of Tulip, but cannot remember her name.)

I agree that some features can look "too dolly". If the goal of reborning is realism, it makes it easier to produce lifelike doll if I start with a sculpt that looks more "real" (i.e. age-appropriate features, expression, and size).

For making a doll that looks like a real baby, Sparrow turns out really cute. Squeaky is one of my all-time favorites. I have used her in my classes because she has the most delightful little creases and features.

-- Edited by Play Days Dolls on Thursday 11th of March 2010 05:16:24 AM

Play Days Dolls · Guru

Regarding the RE vinyl kits made in Germany, the manufacturer says the following:

"Made in Germany", phatalat free vinyl, conforming to EN71/3 European toys norm."

I am busy rearranging and adding those kits to my website because I readily and happily agreed to take on the RE line. It means more kit choices made of "safe" vinyl.

What a thrill to receive the first shipment! I would say it was a sensory delight that only a reborner would relate to--touching the smooth pliable vinyl, looking at all the baby-like faces and limbs, and imagining how I would create each one if I were reborning them.

Of course, I have to sell lots of kits to afford one for my personal use as they are more expensive than Secrist kits. However, I think they are worth every cent as they are from several artists which means more uniquely sculpted faces and limbs from which to choose.

Linda

Pippilong · Member

yes ...the Secrist vinyl is non- toxic and even the genesis, but we use the odorless thinner and this is toxic. this is probably the most dangerous thing.The Genesis colours with solvents commonly used for oil paints is not recommended.

Is that so?

Noantum · Senior Member

Yeah, that's what I've heard. There is risk with anything we do from what I've learned. What to do...what to do.... hmm

I plan to try out the Genesis paints and also the paints sold from DD. Spoke to a woman who has a tutorial there, she swears by it but I'm going to try it out to see how it works for me. It is definately cheaper than Genesis, but I want realistic results so that will be the deciding factor of which I stick with. I'm almost done getting my supplies and the weather is warming up nicely here in the Northeast. I can't wait! aww

Play Days Dolls · Guru

I had not heard about the odorless thinner being toxic. It sounds a little ridiculous only because the transparent nature of the paint can only be accomplished by adding the Genesis thinner, the odorless thinner, or purchasing the already-thinned paints. On a limited budget, the other advantage of the heat set paints is that they last a long time.

If you try the other paints, let us know what you think, okay?

Tombo · Member

If one wishes to use something other than odorless thinner or the genesis thinning medium, one can use something called Sculpey Clay Softener. It used to be called Sculpey Diluent. It will not produce quite the watery consistency of odorless thinner, but it will be less viscous than using the genesis medium.

Tommie

Buffington · Guru

Thanks for that information Tommie!
Is it non-toxic? I have that stuff as I have worked with Sculpy for a long, long time. I guess it would stand to reason that it would work as it's a polymer thing. I had thought the Genesis thinner was non-toxic since they actually recommend it for use with their paints but I'll have to take a look or write to the Genesis rep, have to look at the MSDS sheet on it too.

I might have to try that with the paints on a test limb. :)

Noantum · Senior Member

This is why I love this forum! So much information to share. Good to be here, thanks everyone! aww

Play Days Dolls · Guru

Wow, thanks for the info. I haven't sculpted so was unaware of the clay softener.

Linda

Buffington · Guru

Yes, some really great information in our little forum!! Thanks everyone! :)